Thoughts on email from True Believers and the Election.

I’d intended on putting up a new entry on the election prior to leaving for work, but I ended up responding to an email from yet another True Believer™ telling me how I’m very intelligent and yet still a fool for denying God and making assumptions about what disillusioned me or how proud I am of my quick comebacks and how sad it is that I’ll never know the continual contentment and peace of mind that comes from having a personal relationship with God and that they love me so much they’re going to pray for me in hopes that God will make me miserable so I’ll see the light.

You know, the usual sort of email from these types.

Anyway, that took up most of the time I had set aside so I didn’t get a chance to put in the entry I had intended to. If folks are interested I’ll post the email along with my reply, but it’s really not much you’ve not seen here before.

Now in regards to the election: It appears from all the news accounts that Ohio will be this election’s Florida and I’m sure there are a lot of people in Florida right now who are breathing a big sigh of relief considering all the grief they took after the last election. is showing a mere 2 electoral college votes difference between Bush and Kerry at the moment with Ohio, Iowa, and New Mexico still to be determined. As much as I’d be pleased with a Kerry come-from-behind victory once the provisional ballots in Ohio are counted I’d also be very surprised if it came to pass. At the moment I’m working under the assumption that Bush will win a second term and it would be very easy to allow my cynical side to go to town, but I’ve opted to take solace in a number of things.

First, the country has survived having bad presidents in the past and there’s no reason it can’t survive Bush. Granted, with Republican gains in both the Senate and the House the probability of Bush doing a lot of damage in the next four years is definitely higher, but perhaps this will be just enough rope for him to hang himself in the long run. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the fight against the worst of his policies shift from deadlocks in Congress to litigation in the courts so now is a great time to join the ACLU if you’re not already a member.

Second, the news stories of high voter turnouts is a positive thing in my mind regardless of the outcome. Voting is one of those rights that Americans should be eager to exercise and it’s an easy one to take for granted. I just hope this is the beginning of a positive trend rather than just a passing blip.

Third, the election was still very close which makes me feel a lot better than I would if Bush had won in a landslide. Only a little over half the country needs to have its head examined as opposed to the vast majority as I’m sometimes prone to think. Seriously, this shows that a continuing discussion on the issues that divide us is definitely a worthwhile pursuit and it gives one reason to hold out hope for the future.

Fourth, while I’m disappointed that 10 of the 11 states voting on the issue of gay marriage amendments opted to approve them overwhelmingly—including Michigan—I also realize this is not as much of a setback as an amendment to the U.S. Constitution would have been. These amendments are still vulnerable to a decision from the U.S. Supreme Court as were similar amendments banning interracial marriage that states such as Alabama had in their constitutions. Even if Bush is able to get an amendment to the U.S. Constitution through the new Congress I won’t fret too much as we already have an example of the country coming to its senses and repealing a bad amendment in the form of Prohibition. Still, as long as the issue continues to be decided by the states I think all it would take are a few more states legalizing gay marriage or civil unions and attracting businesses to locate there as a result before the rest of the states suddenly have a change of heart. Michigan in particular could be in for a rude awakening if the courts decide that the vague language in our new amendment not only outlaws same-sex marriage, but prohibits companies from offering domestic partner benefits to their employees if they want to. It’s funny how quickly moral outrage will give way in the face of losses in jobs and taxes to a local economy.

In the time it’s taken me to write this the news sites are reporting that Kerry will concede the election at 1PM today rather than drag the issue out in the courts. This puts my respect for the man at an all time high as this is preferable to the agonizing weeks on end of wondering that the previous election went through. It’s disappointing and not the outcome many of us would have preferred, but not the end of the world. We can and will make it through another four years of Bush and with a lot of work, and a little luck, perhaps the next election will see the country learn from this mistake and move to a more progressive outlook.

Just be sure to hang on tight as it’ll likely be a bumpy ride.

Update: I thought ***Dave’s comments on the election were spot on and worth being read by both sides.

73 thoughts on “Thoughts on email from True Believers and the Election.

  1. Wooof. What a let-down. Somehow I was pretty sure Kerry would win – even do well. It all really boggles the mind. As shana said over in the other thread, its really a hard task trying to comprehend how people could favor such a man.

    You’re right in that a second Bush term ain’t the end of the world. And we can always daydream that with all the bad results of his first term becoming more visible in his second, he may eventually face that backlash we had always hoped for (but which, once sworn in as president, have dogged Kerry too). Maybe democrats will be back real strong in 2008. Maybe.

    Though I totally doubt it that Bush will temper his second term, like some pundits have suggested. He will govern as much to the right as during his first term, maybe even more. The damage for you and the world will be serious.

    Sad day indeed.

  2. I have been reading this blog for a few months now and I quite enjoy the discussions here.  I am writing for the first time today to express my sadness over the outcome of this election.  It truly feels like a kick in the stomach.

    Well I guess the Bushies got what they wanted. 4 more wars! 4 more wars!

  3. As for the true believer mail exchange. Post it. We wouldn’t like your site if we didn’t have some sort of strange fascination for these discussions.

  4. Yes, please post it. I always gain a little more ammunition for my own debates when I read your responses.

    Obahma/Clinton ‘08. It could happen! wink

  5. I am honestly scared. Republicans control the House, Senate, Presidency and will soon be able to appoint at least one Supreme Court member.

    I really am scared. We can justify this as much as we want but this is the worst thing I have ever seen happen in my entire life. Mind you, I’m only 21, but this is still bad news.

  6. I must say that Obama’s win was definitely a bright spot in this election. Thank you people of Illinois for making the right choice on that contest at least.

  7. I too would also like to thank great state of Illinois for making the sane choice. Can you imagine a world where George Bush is president and Alan Keyes is a governor? Very Scary! Luckily it wasn’t even a close vote. To me, Keyes may be the most frightening of all current political figures(Besides Cheney and Rumsfeld of course).

  8. Les, you said your cynical side could have gone to town. My neurosis was already blazing new trails. Thanks for the Valium.

    On another positive note, unless my fears come to pass,
    this is the last 4 years we will have to deal with his … er, him.

    I have misunderstood the votes to ban gay marriages. I think I was expecting the new ink on the US constitution to dry today.

  9. One of the questions that is always posed during an election is, “are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?”.  For my wife and I the answer is an easy “YES”.  Our tax rate is lower, we make more money, we bought a house, I bought my first ‘vette, we go away on vacation every year, etc. 

    Many people have expressed what a disaster everything would be when Bush became president 4 years ago and it didn’t happen.  Social security is still fine, the recession that began before he took office is mostly behind us and people are mostly doing pretty well (if I am to judge by going to local malls).  The only big problem is the war in Iraq.  And I don’t know the answer to that problem.

    So, regardless of everyone’s religious theocracy conspiracy theories, I still had to vote for Bush.  I was personally surprised at how well the Republican party did overall.  With a more secure hold on the house and senate the light will be just a bit brighter on them.  If the republican government screws up now, they have no excuses and you will see a big change in 4 years.  If nothing happens ….?

    Just my take on things.

  10. Although I’m disappointed with the outcome, I’m not surprised. The polls had it too close to call, the incumbency definitely conferred an advantage in this election and, rightly or wrongly, many believed that Bush would be better on national security. On a positive note. Nader didn’t sway the outcome this time and the market is up today.

    Obahma/Clinton ‘08. It could happen!

    Which Clinton?  smile

  11. Les, thanks for the positive notes.  I really need them right now.

    My brother, who writes for Congressional Quarterly, wrote a cover piece on how the GOP is doing as a party, and made some interesting points on how fractured the party may well become with Bush’s victory.  There are plenty of moderates who are not at all happy with the direction in which things are going.  Let’s hope they stand up in the House and Senate and bring this madness to an end.

    Chad, no offense, but your reasoning seems to me to be what I find typical of the Republican mindset:  “I’m doing fine, so who cares about the rest?”  The question is whether the country as a WHOLE (and that includes the people who can’t afford to go to the malls) is doing better.  If you judge it in terms of equality, civil liberties, peace, a balanced budget, and moral authority among the rest of the world, we are failing miserably.  Some people might be doing better economically now, but a much larger number of people, both inside and outside the country, aren’t.

  12. A good point, GeekMom.  There are a lot in the GOP unhappy with the rise in power of the social conservatives—and, now, the apparent abandonment of the fiscal conservatism of the past term.  My hope had been that a Bush loss would lead to a clearing of that particular house, but perhaps a Bush win will make the change as well.

  13. I expect we’ll be seeing quite a few more proselytizers now.  Most of the fundamentalists saw Bush as being appointed by God and his reelection along with a strong republican congress might fuel the fires for revivalists.

    I would suspect that the Christian Coalition would look to forward their agenda under this administration after Bush makes some changes to SCOTUS.

    I’m feeling quite cynical today and think that many dems will fall into the trap of defeatism and take on the attitude of ‘if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.  I hope that’s not the case.  We’ve been through worse. but it’s always nice to take a step forward instead of two steps back.

  14. Thank you, GeekMom.  I am a Republican.  I am a moderate Republican.  I feel so completely alienated from the party (and from the Democrats). I have to believe that there are others out there like me, but where are they?  WHERE ARE ALL THE FUCKING MODERATES????

    Sorry.  Feeling a little bit disenfranchised today.

  15. Chad is doing better than he was 4 years ago? Cool. I’m a little jealous… improved tax rate (not us), a house (not us), a “vette” (hhhmmm), and annual vacations (fun stuff).  I honestly can say I’m glad someone is doing well right now.

    We certainly are not and most of the people we know are not better off, that’s for sure.  Many are certainly worse off and I’m sorry, but I don’t see the repression as “being over” or improved greatly. Oh well, lets just get the party started.  Four more W. years, here we come.

  16. Etan, try not to sweat it too much. Worrying about things that haven’t happened yet will only make you ill. Certainly keep a wary eye open, but try not to let your fears overwhelm your rationality and sap your strength. If the worst does come to pass then you’ll need that energy you would have otherwise wasted. It works for me at least.

    Justice, no changes to the U.S. Constitution just yet. Strictly at the state-level right now.

    Chad, if I were to use your reasoning I’d still have to vote against Bush. I am not better off today than I was four years ago. Bush’s tax cut has not translated into a larger paycheck for me in any real way. In fact the economy has been so bad during Bush’s term that my pay rate has been cut twice in that time and I lost 12% of what I was making when I first hired into my job. At this point in time I’m not quite making ends meet and am looking to take on a part-time second job. My wife isn’t currently working and is having trouble finding even a crappy job at a local store so I am the sole income earner. I had hoped to purchase a house within three years of moving into this apartment and would have had my pay not been cut, but I’m now heading into year six of living here with little hope of buying a home anytime soon. Both of my vehicles are in need of maintenance and I haven’t the funds to have work done on either of them. I’m probably going to have to drop my cable service along with my broadband in the near future and I have a storage unit that I rent to hold some of the stuff there isn’t any room in the apartment for that I will be cleaning out this weekend and tossing a lot of valued things I’d rather keep because I can’t afford to pay the rent on the storage any longer. Certainly with these and other adjustments I won’t be in any danger of being homeless anytime soon, but it definitely means my standard of living has suffered significantly under Bush’s time in office.

    But I will survive and move on. I always seem to find a way.

  17. While the sky-pilots are celebrating their mandate from God, the rest of us need to regroup, wipe the tears from our eyes, and consider how we will push back this Dominionist tide that has come sweeping through the GOP.

    There are moderate Republicans. They’ve been muffled, shouted down, and even brutally silenced by the overweening Right. We need to help them out. We need to help them push back, help them to reclaim the Party of Lincoln before it literally does become the Party of God. GOP will stand for God’s Own Party instead of Grand Old Party if we don’t get off our asses (and elephants) and pull the plug on these people.

    If we don’t, we’ll wake up in some gawdawful theocracy one day, and won’t be able to blame anyone but ourselves.

    Find a Republican. Befriend him or her. Help them reclaim their party. Help us reclaim our country.


  18. The folks who voted for Bush are idiots and dupes and evil homophobic crypto-fascist theocratic thugs!

    I know I wasn’t supposed to say that, but I feel better for it. Not much, but a little better. It’s going to take me a while to swallow this bitter pill.

    It’s not all bad I guess. At least I can keep making condescending entries about the Bushettes. – Silver lining of a sow’s silk purse or whatever.

    Onward and back-wards! I’ll see some of you in the camps, I guess.

  19. damage?  wtf are you guys talking about?  the next four years will come and go and you will all still be safely sitting behind your computers.

  20. Unless, of course, we opt to exercise our free speech rights anywhere near the President. Of course, you don’t think we should be allowed to do that.

  21. Dissappointing doesn’t even begin to cover it for me.  Sorry Les, but I’ve had it.  If the Christians want this damn country, they can have it.  I’m betting money, that we will see a

    quick return of the Federal Marriage Amendment.  Based on the current state of things, I think it will pass.  I’ve just had it with the entire mess.  I’m leaving as soon as I can and the country can go stuff themselves.  Within 4 years, I figure the US will be at war with most of the world anyways.  We’ve seen him attack civil liberties in this country left and right.  And fight against human rights and equal rights.  All this while talking about compassionate conservatism.  BULLSHIT!  There is nothing compassionate about this president.  If we think Bush was arrogant before… JFC wait till you see him now.  He’ll be crowing that he speaks for all of us!  I’m am just so totally over it!

  22. Chad, Bush didn’t lower taxes; he just postponed them so your grandchildren will have to pay.  This pleases you?

    “Damage?  wtf are you guys talking about?”

    Good question, grey; and here’s the answer:
    – damage to our international standing and allies’ relationships
    – damage to future generations in the form of extreme deficit spending
    – damage to the 1st amendment… the one our founding fathers put FIRST for a reason
    – damage to our national security.  That’s right – our military is bogged down in a conflict with a country that wasn’t a threat to us.  Now if we are attacked again and need to go kick someone’s ass, we can’t.
    – damage to national unity from hammering on wedge issues in a cynical attempt to sway frightened voters
    – damage to the justice system
    – damage to the environment

    That’s what we’re talking about when we say, “damage.”

  23. For those feeling less-than-thrilled by another four years of Bush, no matter which way you voted:

    Countdown to lame duck.

    What if they nominate Jeb Bush in 2008?

    Scaaary thought. Unlikely? We believed Georgie was too stupid to be elected, turned out we knew nothing. 4 years of this shit and his electoral tally has even become better.

    I agree with you Brock, many of those voting for him are simply stupid, because they voted against their own interests, and for their fears (gays, terrorists). There ain’t so many millions of millionaires. Heck, there probably ain’t even nearly enough that many middle-class people left.

    It always scares me when I hear how people like Les can be struggling over in the US. Sure, its not Disneyland here in Germany either, but…

    Hey Les, before you ever pull the plug on SEB because of costs, remember our offer of donating bandwidth!

  24. Obahma/Clinton? Well I like them both but I think that Hilary has too many personal issues that would detract from the message, her past making her a continuing target.

    I think that we need a governor to run, easier to elect. Unfortunately we’ll probably find someone that speaks Bubba (I’m tired of presidents with a southern accent) to get some support in the south.

    Kathleen Sebelius, the Democratic governor of a VERY Republican Kansas would make a good Veep candidate.

    BTW, I need some sympathy here in MO. Not only did we get stuck with 4 more years of federal governance by god’s guidance, we ended up with an Ashworth (former MO governor) protege for our governor here. Arrrggghhhh!

  25. Q M, I knew that Farmer didn’t have a chance against Kit Bond, but I thought it Claire M. might win the Governor’s race. Mutual condolences.

  26. Decrepitoldfool has it on the money.  When is anyone in the U.S. planning on paying the debt.  The only way I can see it happening is the devaluation of the US currency, due to the debt to GDP ratio. This will allow more exports of US manufactured goods.  The drawback is that the resources to make those goods become that much more exspensive when the value of your currency drops.  Profits must be maintained so where to make cuts….hmmmm… That workforce they are damned exspensive we should just pay them less.  The U.S. government will soon learn the lesson of Interest payments, when 30%+ of your tax dollar is going to finance interest on the national debt which programs to cut…hmm, well we can always raise taxes on those workers, yea thats the ticket, the GOP ticket.

  27. I think this comic sums it up.

    Even if Kerry would have won I think I’d be trying to leave the US. I just finished earning a Master of Library and Information Science degree and the differences between the US job market and the job markets in every other English speaking country is depressing. The latest job posting for a Librarian job in Michigan was a four month short term contract, part time (12-20 hours a week), $14/hour, no significant benefits, etc. This is pretty much standard for many American Library jobs in recent times. (There are a few exceptions but those are mostly in major urban centers like New York & LA or Director positions, which I lack experience for.) Almost all the jobs in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, & the UK would allow me to actually utilize my education and produce something beneficial to society. Unfortunately, I don’t even have enough money to fill out all the proper applications and fly to whatever country I’d find a job in. Right now I haven’t heard a thing from any of the retail stores that I have applied at so I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place. I can’t afford to relocate and I currently have no means of gaining the needed money.  angry

  28. Deadscot, I ain’t EVER joining ‘em.  Much as I want to leave the country, I can’t help thinking that’s a bad idea.  If all the sane people leave, there will be nothing but homophobic fundie hicks in the US and then we’ll really be in trouble. 

    Of course, I do live in a foreign country right now, but for unrelated reasons…I’ll be back in the summer, hacking along in the crap-ass Ohio job market this summer.  Which, for the record, Chris, sucks rocks.  Go, GeekMom.

    Brock, I am with you.  I really respect you, Les, for having such a positive attitude in the face of the election and your own problems.  But I can’t help but feel so DISAPPOINTED.  My Japanese coworkers have been asking ME why Ohio went Bush, as if I am somehow responsible for the entire state.
    Silly as y’all may think me, I have actual fears of Bush becoming the fascist leader of the American Empire, and I’ll be damned if I’m gonna let THAT happen.  There were still tons of good Germans in Nazi Germany.  (Of course, it’s interesting that my fear fuels my hatred of Bush, much as the fundies’ fear fuels their support of him…)

    I’m gonna go try and explain why people who vote in elections NOT controlled by the national mafia chose a complete retard for president.  I really hate that AP photo floating around of the Bush supporters at his celebration rally.  The rest of the world must feel how we felt when Fox put out that phony image of Palestinians cheering in the streets after 9/11.  It’s an affront.

  29. i’ve never seen such a large group of conspiracy theorists feed off each other like this.  it’s great!

    you guys should really chill out.  at this rate, you’ll burn up by the end of the year.  remember, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

    you guys voiced your opinions at the polls, now it’s time to jump on the team and come in for the big win.

  30. Hey grey, if you had actually read our posts, you would have found that none of us said the election was stolen, or that Bush won because he cheated. He hoodwinked the US electorate fair and square.


  31. The plan to amend the constitution to reflect the twisted religious beliefs of fundamentalists who just cannot get over themselves and accept the fact that homosexuals are not sexual deviants looking to defile their sons and daughters is not a conspiracy theory, it’s just a scary fucking reality. As are the people struggling to feed their families and scrambling to find even bunk jobs.

    No one is imagining getting bent over at the gas pump, our asses really are in the air!


    … or here’s a good one, “Those who attacked us on 9/11 will face justice.”

    Jump on your team? I’m sorry, I was born with some level of my own intelligence and compassion which would only get in your way.

  32. i did read your posts, but according to justice i’m stupid because i have a different opinion, so you’ll have to bear with my inferior ability to deal with large words. i see you’re angry, i just don’t understand how someone can express such complete hatred over issues that they probably don’t know everything about. go get a squishy ball, jerk off, get a membership at the gym, or take your favorite drug before your head pops off.

  33. Says the side that spent, what – two, three? – years obsessing over whether or not Clinton was doing the naughty with Monica.

    That was a hate on par with the one we keep for Bush. And for what? Moral values, my ass.

    My head is firmly on, stays on, and thats the main reason I’d never vote for someone like Bush.

  34. congratulations, you’re anti-bush.  move on.

    i’ve heard an interesting thing about hillary.  apparently she is bi and is wayyy worse than bill.  not that i really care or anything, but it could explain his behavior with monica (not that i care about that either).

  35. grey: If you don’t care then why do you bring it up?

    If Hillary was a Lesbian would it make her less of a person? If George W. Bush was gay would he be a bad leader?

  36. Hate? No, try absolute exhaustion mixed with total frustration over the complete nonsense governing our country.

    And I never called you stupid. As far as I know, you just aren’t paying attention.

    I AM.

  37. etan, i didn’t.

    no and no.  lemme help you with the point i made above:

    “….but it could explain his behavior with monica”

  38. But you continued by saying you don’t care about his behavior with Monica.

    I’d imagine George Walker Bush has issues with his father, he probably feels that his father doesn’t believe in his ability and that is why he felt a need to finish what his daddy started and take Saddam Hussein out of power. Does that matter? Not really but it sure as hell is more important than whether or not Hillary Clinton is Bisexual.

  39. From Slashdot:

    “ has raised the largest Freedom of Information request in history. At 8:30 p.m. Election Night, Black Box Voting blanketed the U.S. with the first in a series of public records requests, to obtain internal computer logs and other documents from 3,000 individual counties and townships. Networks called the election before anyone bothered to perform even the most rudimentary audit. Among the first requests sent to counties (with all kinds of voting systems—optical scan, touch-screen, and punch card) is a formal records request for internal audit logs, polling place results slips, modem transmission logs, and computer trouble slips.”

    The site is down right now due to bandwidth problems but here’s the link for when they come back up.

  40. dood, i know you’ve gotta vent, but don’t let it could your vision.  i was merely stating that hillary being bi and messing around on bill might explain why he was messing around on her.  as far as i’m concerened, what they do to get their jollies is none of my business.

    justice -you may not have called me stupid, but the last line in your previous post left me with that impression.  it obviosly wasn’t typed to make me feel good.

  41. All I am asking is if you don’t care then why did you bring it up? Furthermore, what does Hillary’s sexuality have to do with anything?

  42. Grey, we might be able to move on a lot more easily than the families of a thousand dead American soldiers and the families of a hundred thousand dead Iraqis could.  Not to mention people who joined the Guard to defend our country in case of an invasion, or to help with national disasters, only to be sent to an unwinnable war based on a… well, you get upset if I say “lie,” so let’s just call it a “flip-flopping rationale.”

    And our grandchildren might have trouble moving on from the debt created as this president whipped out the plastic and said, “send the bill to them.”

  43. grey – yeah, I know, and this is just infinitely more important than any real conspiracy theories, such as any involving Bush, Hussein, and WMD’s.

    And for the record. I don’t care about a President screwing an intern. I do care about a President screwing an entire country.

  44. i didn’t bring it up, ingolfson did.  if you read what i typed without thinking i’m automatically against gays or clinton you could see that i was trying to give some explaination about why slick willy messed around with monica -in effect trying to stand up for him.

  45. justice -i don’t care about slick willy fucking around on monica either.  hell, if my wife weren’t putting out i’d be fucking around on her too!

  46. sorry, i’m not offended.  you’ve got your own agenda and you’re hearing what you want to hear about what i was saying about clinton.

    decrepitoldfool -i grew up an army brat and have been serving in the guard for 8 years.  i had to deploy because of the war in iraq, but i didn’t cry about it.  i actually look forward to another deployment -they’re great learning experiences.  military families understand the position they are in.  a soldier’s work is risky.  they understand and accept the risk, and if they don’t they don’t belong in uniform.  i can’t speak for the iraqi people because i haven’t been there to see how they feel about it.  i haven’t heard much about national debt other than the deficit is on the rise.  rebuilding iraq won’t be cheap.

  47. grey, I daresay your fine positive attitude about deployment would be an exception among those deployed in Iraq.  This is supported by the Pentagon “stop-loss” order and fall-off in enlistment.

    How they feel about their dead is probably not difficult to imagine; they are human.  How would you feel?  Not how would you rationalize, but your family members are dead – how would you feel?

    As for the deficit, you might want to take a look at the numbers.  Right now it’s about $25,000 per citizen – that’s every man, woman, child, retired person.  It falls disproportionately on working people and devotes a huge portion of the taxes collected to paying interest on the debt.

    Incidentally, who loans all that money to our country?  Other countries with cash.  Like oil-producing countries.

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